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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 4 post(s) |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
2961
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Posted - 2016.02.08 18:31:32 -
[1] - Quote
Paddy Finn wrote:Don't try and do mental gymnastics about how FAX and carriers roles are significantly different from the combined roles the carrier has now. If you can fly it before a patch you should be able to fly it after a patch, this is an unacceptable solution to the problem. To be fair to CCP, you can still fly your carrier after the patch. And the remote skills will still work, just not as effectively. The drone skills will still work, just not on a carrier but you can fly other ships which use drones as well. They are changing the role of the carrier, but that's happened before to other ships, I mean, take a look at Marauders for a similarly dramatic change in use.
So it doesn't quite apply as you are trying to use it, though I wouldn't complain if CCP gave everyone both skills either. Neutral myself as to which solution gets used. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
2961
|
Posted - 2016.02.08 18:38:28 -
[2] - Quote
LYFE SUCKS wrote:LYFE SUCKS wrote:what if you trained 2 carriers to V but didnt train tactical logi reconfig yet, but still want the sp refunded as you were training for triage??? dont forget about my question pls lol Inject and train tactical logi to 1? Along with the FAX skills. The CCP post doesn't say you have to have them to a particular level to get the unallocated SP. Plenty of time to do that before Citadel hits, you have months to sort this in. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
2962
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Posted - 2016.02.08 23:53:34 -
[3] - Quote
Malcanis wrote: There was no difficulty in giving 4.5m sp to battlecruiser pilots.
Because otherwise those pilots lost access to existing hulls that they could use.
This change to carriers is more akin to the mining frigates & cruisers losing all their bonuses to mining and the new mining frigate being introduced. Where CCP did not award skill points because the hulls still existed and could still be flown.
And I sure don't remember lots of experienced people screaming that it wasn't fair that they didn't get given the new mining frigate at V. As I said before I am neutral, but historical precedent of this sort of change actually is that people have to train the new hull. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
2962
|
Posted - 2016.02.09 00:46:13 -
[4] - Quote
Ashterothi wrote:I fear this is a concerning step away from how such things have been handled in the past.
As of right now carriers server two roles, that of being a carrier, and that of being a triage carrier. After the FAX releases, part of that ability will be split off into this new ship, behind a new skill which must be bought and trained.
Traditionally the rule has always been, "If you can do it before, you can do it now". This is a shift from that to "We will allow you to choose which of these two you want, but we will give you some time to prepare." which is pretty far from the same thing.
I understand that this issue is somewhat mild in the grand scheme of things, and doesn't really directly effect me, but I believe it sends a very dangerous message. Especially as SP now has a tangible monetary value to CCP beyond subscription reward. No, the rule has not and never has been that. The rule was 'If you could fly it before you can fly it after'
There are a number of historical changes where a ship has had it's role significantly changed, such as the mining ships I mentioned earlier, or for the geddon from a laser boat to a neut boat, and other missile/turret boat changes, none of which received any kind of refund. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
2962
|
Posted - 2016.02.09 00:54:29 -
[5] - Quote
Ashterothi wrote: You are correct that ships that have been altered have not have refunding, but this is actually splitting off some of the functionality and expecting people to buy it a second time.
This situation doesn't map exactly to anything in the past, and they are free to implement this as is. It isn't terrible, just disappointing.
The troubling bit is that they seem to acknowledge that there is a choice to be made, a choice you didn't have to make before. They opted to side with not allowing magic SP to appear, which is different than past events. All I am saying is I hope that this is not a step towards evaluating SP as a monetizable asset, and thus granting SP as potential loss revenue, as this would impact future decisions as well as this one.
Except it does. The mining ship changes split off mining from all the racial frigates and introduced a new skill for ore frigates. And people were not awarded the ore frigate skill based on their racial frigates. Certainly the SP involved was a much smaller number, but the principle was exactly the same.
That said, I'm not against CCP changing their policy, but they are not being inconsistent with their policy nor is this a totally new and unprecedented situation. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
2962
|
Posted - 2016.02.09 01:05:36 -
[6] - Quote
Ashterothi wrote: I really like that argument, but I am afraid I don't think it quite applies either. The mining frigates were new ships designed to fill a roll that was not being filled by the T1s, and freed up those hulls to be used for something else entirely. The difference is there is no specific skill to fly the racial T1s, and so the number of people who would feel "cheated" by this, as opposed to being happy to train the new skill, would be very very low.
I still see this as being far closer to the destroyer and BC split.
I really can't agree with that. There was a T1 frigate bonused with mining. And people did use them There were T1 cruisers bonused with mining. The skill split removed all that ability from that 'skill' and put it into a totally new skill with a totally new ship.
This is exactly the situation that is happening with the Carriers. The two differences are the Sp involved is a lot more, and the split is 50/50 while the T1 racial skills kept most of their 'attributes' as there was more than one hull the skill gave access to to begin with. But the actual situation is the same, just a difference in details.
So going by historical example CCP is actually being more generous than in the past already by allowing people to respec to the new skill (or to something else entirely even). Sure the SP involved is more, but a larger SP number does not change the principle, it just changes it from newbies being affected to vets being affected. And suddenly we see lots of screaming this time. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
2963
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Posted - 2016.02.09 08:35:04 -
[7] - Quote
Very Aggressive Reacharound wrote: ^this and it should be non racial its giant logistics and to train carrier and fax would still be long train but you could cross train easier much like current logistics. if it works for other logistics why change it for carrier... oh wait i forgot you hirred Maria Sayans and you have to make people pay for injectors.
Or possibly it's because Carriers are considered T1 ships, not T2 ships and T1 ships have racial lines, and T2 ships require those same racial lines to V per race and then an additional skill on top. Really, you are just having an entitlement whine at this point.
And Malcanis, you are being a two year old. This doesn't take effect for three months or longer, of course there was going to be an Aur sale between now and then, and timing it with the new release of a new aur item is common business practice, or are CCP not allowed to use basic common business techniques to make any profit at all? |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
2963
|
Posted - 2016.02.09 09:16:41 -
[8] - Quote
Morrigan LeSante wrote: I mean, be honest, if they added a new skill required for each ships to be flown: 14x, at 500m a book you'd be utterly furious. Let's call it "$RACE flight authorization skills" and without it, you don't get to do tomorrow what you can do today. Are you seriously telling me you'd be ok with that?
So, are you surprised the carrier guys are more than a little pissed? Because I'm not.
You are trying to compare apples & oranges here though. You are presenting a case where I couldn't fly the hulls I could fly today, CCP are presenting a case where they have removed a role from a ship because it was too powerful with it's multirole ability and then created a new ship to cover that role because it's an important role in the overall meta.
Yes, it's a nerf, but it was an obviously needed nerf to the carrier, and those people getting upset over not getting both skills free are mainly getting upset over false pretences and bad examples that don't actually match what is really going on. I'm neutral on the overall skill question, but when people are raging and abusing CCP over false pretences then I'm going to call them out on their behaviour. Especially when it's not old characters getting the shaft, because newbro's have to spend exactly the same time training they will. It's newbro's who get the shaft if old characters get both skills for free, not the other way around. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
2963
|
Posted - 2016.02.09 09:47:32 -
[9] - Quote
Morrigan LeSante wrote: Old guy wants it? 500m on top of the 500m they already sunk and the associated vestigial skills with the now useless to them carrier skill.
What vestigial skills? You can't use fighters while in triage, so if you trained fighters you trained to fly a combat carrier as well as triage. And no, your example was directly 'you will need this new skill to fly the same hull you needed to before'. You are the one dancing around here trying to find an opening.
And they didn't split the industrial hulls, All those hulls already existed. This is exactly what I am talking about, people are presenting false information and then using it to justify their outrage. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
2963
|
Posted - 2016.02.09 10:00:12 -
[10] - Quote
Morrigan LeSante wrote:If you don't even know what the carrier prereqs are, please stop bleating in a discussion about carriers.
and again, re-read it. I specifically said " you don't get to do tomorrow what you can do today".
You know, exactly what's happening to carriers. Fighters are not a pre-req for carriers. Only drones are, and drones apply to all your sub cap ships (& may even apply to FAX, we don't know yet). Jump drives are a pre-req, and will certainly be applicable to FAX. Capital ship skill is, they will be a pre-req also. Oh, and racial BS 3, that's likely to remain a pre-req for FAX's also.
Want to tell me more about these vestigial skills that you HAD to train for a Triage carrier that won't apply to either FAX or all your subcap ships also. And even if you trained straight to carriers, you have subcap ships with drone space you have skills in already.
Anthar Thebess wrote: Why i simply cannot choose : Amarr -> Fax Caldari -> Fax Gallente -> DPS Minmatar (lol i know) -> no i don't know dps maybe.
Because CCP can't do a database query script to change every single pilots skills according to that system. That's why they have done the system they have. |
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Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
2963
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Posted - 2016.02.09 10:05:49 -
[11] - Quote
Morrigan LeSante wrote:Confirming drone interfacing is useful to my dedicated logi/triage pilot. Jesus.
I get it, you're of the **** the old guys generation. Enjoy your game. Confirming missile skills were useful to a dedicated Naglfar pilot. CCP have changed ship roles many a time in the past which left a 'dedicated' pilot of just that ship with skills that were no longer applicable to that ship. That however is not CCP's problem in overall game design but yours in insisting that the only ship you can and will ever fly is that particular ship. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
2964
|
Posted - 2016.02.09 11:22:09 -
[12] - Quote
Morrigan LeSante wrote: However when this precedent comes around to something you do care about, I'll be sure to remind you all to htfu.
You mean like every single subcap role change that has been done as part of tiericide that you have said 'HTFU' to in response to complaints already? Though I'll admit I've said the same thing to most of them also. This is nothing to do with what I can or can not do, especially since I've just finished training carrier pre-reqs in order to fly a multirole carrier if I want and now have to reassess the budget needed to do that.
This is to do with the fact that this is not a precedent, the precedents have been and gone years previous and CCP are actually being more generous to cap pilots than they were to anyone else affected by their similar subcap changes. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
2965
|
Posted - 2016.02.09 22:08:51 -
[13] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote:My solution did not involve free SP or reimbursed SP.
It is by far the simplest option they could have chosen and follows a model already in place for frigate and cruiser DPS/Logi. They could have just released the new cap and rejigged the stats on the existing caps and job done. All based on the current carrier skill. No one is further ahead or behind where they were before. Everyone is happy that slow cats are dead.
TBH, im more against free SP than what they did because i think creating SP hills for only newer players to climb is bad for the game.
But in the same respect, creating an SP hill for EVERYONE to climb even though many were already over that hill is absurd.
This leads to speculation about the justification for such changes, which in this case is a clear cash grab.
And your irreverent point about just having to accept CCPs current trend in decision making, if this was a CCP blog i would accept that. But this is a forum, so we are allowed to discuss and decide if we aret going to personally tolerate changes in CCPs decision making style. Capitals do not follow the T1 subcap progression patterns and never have. And the change in the decision making style is to allow you to move the SP. If you want CCP to stick to their old decision making style then you have to train the FAX skills and get no reallocation of SP at all, because that was their old style.
It's not a cash grab, it's just rampant paranoia making you feel that way. It's just a standard nerf to an OP ship. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
2966
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Posted - 2016.02.10 12:01:27 -
[14] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
Racial Dreadnought + Tactical Reconfiguration Racial Fleet Auxiliary Support + Carrier + Fighters Racial Fleet Auxiliary Support + FAX + Triage.
Your idea is so amazing, if only CCP could have thought of it.... Oh wait they did and discarded it because it failed to meet one of their aims, which was that any of the capitals should be equal value first trains for someone new to caps.
Your idea yet again leaves the Dread skill out as the poor cousin, something they specifically were designing to prevent. Their current solution is actually the ideal solution, yes it hurts having to spend training time to be able to both DPS & Logi perfectly again, but at the end of the day it is the best solution available for their given design requirements. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
2966
|
Posted - 2016.02.10 12:33:07 -
[15] - Quote
Morrigan LeSante wrote: Where are the new skill requirements for the stasis grapplers? Where is the unique bowhead skill? Or is it just cap pilots who get the good news?
Uh, that would be called Ore Freighter, a skill which only does the Bowhead? Seriously, at least try to know what you are whining about. |
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